The Removal of Palms
In MOAPA Warmsprings, Nevada
& Why we should care!
&
An Invitation to Make YOUR voices heard
by Spencers, & Greg Smith - September 2011
Questions and Answers by Moapa Valley Newspaper:
Regarding The removal of palms at Moapa Warm Springs:
[interview questions by Tim Robinson, Moapa Valley Nevada - September 26, 2007]The following interview questions were posed in response to actions by the Fish and Wildlife in Moapa Warm Springs Nevada in which they condemn the wild palm: Washingtonia filifera, growing there and tag it as a 'Nuisance Plant introduction thereby targeting it for removal.
The Fish and Wildlife have a mandate to protect the endangered fish:
Moapa Coriacea or Moapa Dace. Studies by visiting Authors published using NO provable basis determined that the Desert Fan Palms are a nuisance introduction.
Words used such as 'weeds' and 'exotic' in reference to these palms have helped shape local bias and current policy which is now funded to remove as many palms as possible from local Riparian habitat.
Alternate information and documents indicating the palm is actually a Native species along with the fish have been systematically ignored for two decades. Local Native Americans who recall grandparents claims of ancient uses of palm fruit and fibers fall on deaf ears. Their stories are being lost one by one. Futhermore the Western Yellow Bat: Lasiurus xanthinus whose habitat is exclusively found in Wild Washingtonia filifera groves has been found in Moapa warm springs. The removal of the palms hurts this rare species and destroys it's main habitat. Even the Fish and Wildlifes own data indicates that recent palm removals have caused Dace populations to plummet. Spencer has been fighting this hard to follow logic since 1994 with no success using their own data to contend that Washingtonia filifera are native plants in Moapa Warm Springs NV. Here is a synopsis of important questions and answers.
More detailed arguments are found in links below this interview.
1) Mr. Spencer is being used as an expert on this subject what are his credentials, background, training and so forth?
answer 1) -Actually Spencer, doesn't claim to be an expert, but for 15 years has in fact, repeatedly asked for expert help. He is simply acts as a reporter and pours through the existing research and notes the obvious flaws. He spearheads the documentation of this effort. If he were to find a factual scientifically sound basis for their claim that this palm is NOT a native plant in Moapa, he would advocate removal of the palm in Dace habitat. His expertise is that he cares passionately about getting at the facts. He is an avid amateur plant enthusiast and naturalist.
Spencer avidly read the documents which were used by area agencies to label Washingtonia filifera an exotic nuisance introduction. This palm is found naturally only in southern NV in springs Like Moapa and in AZ and CA in similar remote springs. Instead of supporting their claims Spencer discovered their documents were very deficient on key points. Those documents became the very material by which to best refute the claims being made.
He has presented the FWS, Lake Mead NRA their botanists and other experts with this documentation and has been systematically ignored since 1997.
However also In 1997, Botanist Dr. Bill Bittle [an expert on Washingtonia filifera Fan Palms - with 20 years experience in Palm Springs and president of the International Palm Soc. S. Texas] read and endorsed Spencer's research and published it in the International Palm Society journal. The Archaeo-Nevada society - a society of preservationists - also voted unanimously to support Spencer's work. Spencer's documents also may still be found at the Overton Library in Overton Nevada, Moapa Valley.
In this interview you will see that MORE evidence has come to light even more dramatically supporting Spencer's conclusions that Washingtonia filifera palms are native plants in Moapa Nevada.
Fish and Wildlife originally USED a Botanist to make claims which are the basis of the removal of this palm from natural areas around Moapa, but the information which needs to be corroborated actually turns out to be beyond a botanical field of expertise. A historian from the Overton Area is really what is needed since using the Botanical science of this Plant is incapable of making such determinations.
The reason is simple: All of the botanical information for this palm in Warm springs is identical to the botanical information where-ever this plant is found in nature. This includes: climate, companion plants and Native American presence with similar culture and language among other things. Therefore if anything - the botanical information SUPPORTS Spencer's conclusions and is incapable of excluding this Palm as a native plant here.
What has not been clear however is documentation of the Palms' recent history in Moapa over the last 200 years. For that - old photos and journals would be more qualified than botanical science to decide whether this plant is native to the area.
2) Who was Mendis Cooper?
Answer 2 ) -Mendis Cooper is an early setter who arrived in Overton from Mesa AZ in 1893, married, had a number of children and then died 10 years later in 1903. A local old story credits him with planting the first Palms in Overton. No claim is made regarding WHERE he got these palms, only that he planted the first landscape palms in Overton. This story is used by the FWS to condemn the palms to death.
Subsequent speculation by both FWS and others presumed that Mendis obtained palms or seeds in Mesa AZ. However this is not possible since there were no palms in Mesa in 1893. Spencer found that this latter fact is documented by four researchers in AZ. [Carmony, Lowe, Brown and Turner - AZ Academy of Sciences].
It is more likely that Mendis Cooper found his plants or seeds locally at one of the nearby Springs where palms already existed in 1893. He may have been the first local resident to plant the palms in a landscape situation. His palms still exist in a straight line on the front of the historical property. They are dwarfed by the tallest Palms at Warm Springs which are twice as tall in many cases. Yet it is the story that Mendis planted the first palms in Overton, that a botanist used to condemn the Wild Palm groves numbering into thousands of trees at Moapa Warm Springs Nevada, nearly 40 miles away from Coopers homestead to the northwest.
3) Where, other than Rogers Springs are these fan palms growing? Katherine's Landing is down by Laughlin correct?
Answer 3) -Rogers Spring has palms now but we don't know if they existed in recent historical records [meaning 120 years previously].
The main area of Palms is Moapa Warm Springs. This is where we are concerned and where they are being removed.
Katherine's landing is by Laughlin and is referred to by Spencer because it is the location of an imaginary Climate line which has been claimed [without factual basis] that Natural groves of this species arbitrarily ends. Those using this line fail to note that the ancient distribution of Fan palms encompassed most western states extending from Wyoming down to the Mexican border. This is known from fossils.
One must understand that in Victorian times -early 1830's through 1920 - people became fascinated with palm trees. Palms were associated with the exotic tropics and were imported from exotic places for landscapes in mild winter areas. In 1849 the West Coast was being settled by people from the East Coast and yet the majority of the West's interior was unsettled - particularly the Desert southwest as well as Moapa. This palm is not native to coastal California, but only to widely distributed remote Southwestern Desert Warm Springs.
For that reason this Palm went undiscovered by Whites settling the west until late 1800's. By this time the west coast was already being planted by many Palms from exotic tropics.
Although it's appearance is very similar to some of these palms brought in from Mexico, Australia and China this newly discovered palm was NOT exotic and certainly NOT tropical and it is unrelated to other palms.
Still, By the time Mormons settled Moapa, people viewed ALL Palms as Tropical plants and this palm was no exception, even though it is only found naturally in U.S. Deserts. MOST people still think this palm is a tropical import and must be educated to understand that this palm is found naturally no where else on earth.
4) Where are the petroglyphs that show the palms? Do you have any pictures?
answer 4 ) -It is unlikely anyone can claim that any petroglyph definitely indicates palms. Petroglyphs are stylized and the meaning ascribed to them largely died with those who created them. Experts can speculate because some shapes are unmistakable. Bighorn for example, human shapes and atl-atls.
There IS a petroglyph which bears a remarkable resemblance to the trunk of a palm possessing fruit bearing stalks on Atl Atl rock in the Valley of Fire.
This has never been identified as a Palm, but it is interesting and complete details are in the Full report below as well as a photo showing this petroglyph superimposed over a mature Palm with fruiting stalks - it is nothing short of spectacular. The resemblance is uncanny.
5) Where are the fossils that show the palms? Do you have any pictures?
answer 5 ) -There are 100's of fossils which are positively identified as palms which have been unearthed all the way from Wyoming, Colorado, Oregon and all the way down to Barstow. Mostly palm roots, some parts of Fan leaves and stems. I don't personally own any original photos however they are obtainable but copyrighted.
Spencer recently saw a fossil of a fully intact Fan palm leaf - 6 feet tall.
Such finds are very rare. It was discovered in Wyoming and was sold for $50,000 in Tucson. There are 4000 species of palms worldwide but only very ancient species like Washingtonia are found in the fossil record. IT is not a tropical palm it is a temperate palm and actually does not do as well in the tropics or even on the coast. Tropical palms are considered to have recently evolved and so as a rule are not in the fossil record.
NO fossil palm may be positively identified to Taxa by leaf remains alone - even perfect fossils. This however is only because Plant taxonomy is not based on leaves - which vary- but on the flowers. Existing Palm species however, may be ruled out as NOT being the subject taxon of a fossil.
So with this in mind, you should know that all existing palm species except for W. filifera may be ruled OUT by the current existing fossils.
Therefor the fossils must be: either Washingtonia or they are another ancient extinct species which happens to possess identical leaf parts to Washingtonia. Simply because Washingtonia filifera is ONLY found naturally in the Western United states today, it has been assumed by Daniel Axelrod [an expert] that they are indeed Washingtonia fossils.
6) Why does FWS believe the palm to be a nuisance, how will the dace be affected?
answer 6 ) -The FWS believe the Palm to be a nuisance because of two claims:
Waterway restriction and Fire hazard.
Lets take waterway restriction first.
This claim made by FWS seems fairly nonsensical.
Facts and figures are given on water flow etc. largely ignoring the fact that if Water is constricted too severely, it will do what it has done since water was invented:
It will go around the offending structure.
Palms do not have the ability to pick up roots and move to the newly created channel except as new palms.
Secondly, Palm roots are actually quite small [ratio to top] compared to the root masses of cottonwoods and Salt Cedar which are also along water channels. Anyone who has spent time in the Warm Springs Moapa area can attest to the fact that the water runs swiftly and without restriction right by the palms roots. FWS cannot make any scientific claims which provably demonstrate that Palm roots harm the Dace by restriction of water flow. So this claim is a rather obscure one. Likely meant to remain obscure by those who drafted it.
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Now regarding Fire.
First of all, Where ever there are burnable plant materials, dead cottonwood limbs, dry Pluchea arrow-weed, whatever...there will be fire danger. Filifera palms however, hold onto their dead leaves for many years... these are extremely flammable so the danger to Humans can be great. IT is NOT clear however that they have ever posed a great danger to the Dace.
The FWS makes two fantastic claims regarding the great Warm Springs Palm Fire of 1994.
One Claim is regarding official and unofficial counts where they claim fire killed fish based on those counts and the other claim is a question of science fiction style thermodynamics.
In the first FWS claim, an ichthyologist [Scoppettone] 'unofficially' counted 500 dace at the three springs on the FWS refuge itself just prior to the June 1994 fire and subsequently was only able to FIND 15 [again unofficially] immediately following the fire, so he made the statement: [which was printed into the research paper which helped get their funding] that the FIRE had 'extirpated' [sic] nearly 500 fish. (Scoppettone et al pers. comm to Amy Sprunger)
There are many problems with Scoppettones damning statement, not the least of which; the count of 500 and the subsequent count of 15 were NOT officially documented controlled counts.
The problems we have with Scoppettone's unofficial count are several fold:
- a. ---Firstly The official counts earlier in 1987 followed by and official one two months AFTER the fire, soundly demonstrate that the Dace population actually INCREASED. Instead of dying the Dace were alive and well all the way up to and AFTER the fire.
- b. ---Scoppettone made that quick count of 15 but fails to acknowledge that the Dace may have been hiding under palm roots, or that they may have escaped down stream temporarily only to be included in the later official count made one month later.
- c. ---Scoppettone never documented observing any actual DEAD FISH after the fire. Dead fish usually float making them easy to count. He makes this amazing claim without a single report of a documented Dead fish. The numbers prove Dace were not harmed.
Here is where FWS could have used a primer in simple thermodynamics before printing their claim for everyone to see.
Giving them the benefit of the doubt however, Spencer uses Studies with other hot springs fish in Tecopah to give this idea some reasonable latitude.
These studies have shown that quick rises in temperature of 15 degrees- from 89 f to 105 f - do NOT harm endangered cyprinidon fishes in any way.
[order cyprinodontiformes].
It is likely that Dace [another order cyprinoformes] would equally be unaffected by a 15 degree rise in temp. from 89 f., - the temperature of Warm Springs at Moapa.
To raise the ENTIRE body of water by 15 degrees [which still may not have killed the fish] would have taken massive amounts of energy for a very long time... and that is IF the water would just please remain still for the ichthyologists.
This fire was over quickly and the water moves at well over 3 cubic feet per second however. So Scoppettone is apparently talking about bending the rules of time and space - or at least simple thermodynamics.
Even if the temperature WAS indeed heated to that extreme [from a fire occurring several feet ABOVE the water] - surely the fish could still have escaped by using deeper cooler channels of the stream as the water became heated. The palm roots in the stream were undamaged and unburned in fact! The fish may have hidden in their very insulative WET bundles. To us, this argument from the FWS is so incredulous as to beg honoring it with a serious reply.
The MOST amazing post-script however to the fire question is that the FWS's actual OFFICIAL counts a month AFTER the fire show that the numbers of Dace actually ROSE from 1987.
This fact is very hard to ignore yet the FWS has ignored it or glossed over it and they refuse to look at this data and admit they could have it wrong.
In fact the FWS started removing palms by the hundreds after the fire, never mind the data glitch that was supposed to indicate that Palms killed the fish but didn't. They had already published that it had.
The NEXT official count three years after the fire and after hundreds of Palms had been removed were daunting: Dace numbers had PLUMMETTED. This time there was NO fire. They had removed hundreds of palms, this in fact is ALL that changed... well that and newly cleaned stream banks.
Yet again, more palms were removed and in 2001 another official count showed that Dace numbers had plummeted yet again! What ever could they be doing wrong?
So in other words, the FWS's own data demonstrates not only that FIRE did NOT kill the fish, but rather the act of 'removing' the palms may actually be the single most contributing factor to declining numbers of the Dace. Their figures cannot exclude this distinct possibility. Throughout the entire last century, when ever Dace were counted, it's numbers were seen as plentiful, right there along with the palms. It was even considered common at several points in Moapa. Introduced fish and chlorine as well as changing stream beds and dams contributed to it's decline. Palms have never played a role.
They are in denial of this information because they have already decided without scientific basis that the palms are an Introduced species. The logic runs thus: How could removing an 'invasive species' hurt the Dace?
This logic is created to fit their pre-established agenda.
So instead of blaming the decline of Dace numbers on the more OBVIOUS act of removing the palms (the only thing that changed) they blame imported fish like Tilapia on the now rapidly declining numbers as they remove yet more palms.
But this logic fails to answer a couple of simple questions:
IF Fire truly DID kill those elusive 500 Dace
[which is contradicted completely by the official counts] -
then why didn't that same fire also kill the Tilapia which they now blame for the subsequent drop in Dace numbers after the removing the burned palms?
And Why did no one document finding ANY Dead Fish, either Dace and Tilapia?
In the meantime Mr. Spencer has been accused of having an agenda. He is a 'palm lover'. However, in all fairness, if they could demonstrate that the palm is NOT native Spencer would have no argument against their removal policies. He spent huge resources of time to document this on his own dime. There is no pay off for him.
They have not provided adequate proof however and removing the palms just happens to be a permanent solution to a claim with no provable basis.
In the meantime I guarantee you they are Fish lovers, they work for the Fish and Wildlife. And their jobs depend on that. And money for the Dace recovery is a very large amount indeed. So who really has the agenda? Nothing wrong with liking both, I say.
Meanwhile in other desert Fan palm groves which are officially considered natural, Fan Palms live in harmony with small endangered fish AND fire danger is very real yet both species are protected. The FWS has full knowledge of these areas.
On a side note: A rare Bat has been found to live in the Palms at Moapa. This Bat is almost ALWAYS found in wild Washingtonia filifera groves. The dead palm skirts appear to be it's preferred habitat. Trimmed palms such as landscape trees do not harbor the bat. The presence of this Bat, the Western Yellow Bat may actually demonstrate that this palm is supposed to be here. See the index for more info to this question here:
7) Has any contact been made to the Congressional delegation regarding this?
answer 7 ) -Yes, congress had to be involved by the FWS as part of the Plan for overall protection of the Dace. It was approved that the palms be removed within the larger scope of the plan. Efforts to stop removing the palm through congress [for those opposed ] may be futile at this point since the removal of the palm is considered part of the approved budget for restoring Dace habitat.
Bureaucracy works slowly and it has spoken.
The Large amounts of Tax dollars to remove the palms was obtained for the most part, by inviting a botanist to visit the area for three days and write an official paper. Other papers were written by this botanist as well.
This was done and in these papers it was claimed that the Palms in Warm Springs were likely to have been introduced to the area by Mormon settlers.
The main official paper was printed in Desert Plants, Vol. 8 - no. 4 - 1986
It completely failed to address the fact that numerous Moapa band of Paiute members had claimed the palm predated White man to the area. The claim of one White person rather is taken as proof that no palms existed in Warm Springs in 1865.
This is refuted by numerous other claims by people who kept journals or had family in the area around that time, but they were not consulted. The numbers of mature palms the paper claims to have counted is directly refuted by photographic evidence as well. Other parts of the paper and the other documents by the same Scientist are directly refuted by well documented arguments.
The main scientifically based arguments the official papers make, namely the lack of presence of a Beetle and question over the Taxon of a fossil find are refuted using the scientists' own contradictory published writings and little else was needed to refute him.
The funding was made official because protecting the endangered Dace fishes habitat was a critical mandate from Congress and By using the aforementioned papers the palm has now been tagged as an encroaching un-natural exotic nuisance Plant species fouling the endangered Dace habitat. Yet no science has ever been able to back up this claim.
If the palms are the Dace's real habitat, then the FWS is guilty of harming the Dace. Their counts before and after the fire and after removing the palms documents this in their own literature, much to their discredit.
8) You mention that the palm is protected in other places, where is this?
answer 8 ) -This Palm is protected in ALL of it's natural habitat elsewhere.
There are protected areas in: Castle creek AZ, KOFA canyon AZ, 29 palms CA, Turtle Mountains CA, Thousand Palms CA, Anza Borrego CA, Tahquitz canyon CA, and many other places too numerous to mention. Some are protected as parts of Desert state parks, some are on Sacred Indian lands, Some set aside by the Nature Conservancy where fish are also protected.
9) Can you get me more information on Dr. Bill Bittle?
answer 9 ) -Dr. Bill Bittle passed away a few years ago.
He was a botanist who spent a number of years with Native American Cultures in Palm Springs [who are linguistically considered related to the Moapa band of Paiutes] and more recently served as president and editor of an International Palm Society journal. He privately agreed with Spencer's conclusions and published his work. Publicly he never made a statement except to encourage people to sign a petition to stop the removal of Palms in Moapa.
10) How long do the palms live?
answer 10 ) -No one knows.
Some botanists believe they could live as long as two or three hundred years but since Palms have no rings they can't be dated in this way and so no one is certain. They also have the ability to go into a sort of stasis when stressed and Spencer has observed a palm near Overton over thirty years of age which remained only a couple of feet tall.
- End of Interview questions
Spencer, currently lives in Tucson Arizona. He lived in the Moapa area around 1980.
Please - let your voice be heard.
We feel we should err on the side of caution not ignorance.IF you would like to make your voice heard, you can tell the Fish and Wildlife offices yourself by writing to the manager at the following e-mail address:
To E-Mail Fish and Wildlife Click Here
Be sure to get all the other facts regarding this issue:
Follow the Links below to read the supporting documentation and arguments. You may also visit the second index which helps to clarify these points.
Links to all the reports follow:
Articles about the Moapa Palms and Related articles:
11 QUICK CONDENSED FACTS may be found HERE.
A FIVE PAGE INTRODUCTION is HERE.
A MORE in depth EIGHT PAGE INTRODUCTION is HERE.
A TEN PAGE PREFACE TO THE FULL REPORT is HERE.
the 100 PAGE FULL REPORT HERE
[ please note: The full report does not include recently discovered information regarding the Bats or Counts ]Rebuttals to existing Articles re: W. filifera:
| GLOBAL WARMING, NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR PALMS SPREAD! |
| W.FILIFERA: EVIDENCE POINTS TO A RELICT SPECIES!' |
Links to Moapa tribal Info:
| MOAPA TESTIMONIALS | MOAPA TRIBE INTRO | THE MOAPA TRIBE |
| CAHUILLA FACTS | THE CAHUILLA |